Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing Hit with Class Action Suit

by louabbott on September 3, 2010

In a 42 page document (exclusive of Exhibits) plaintiffs Yvonne Day , Leonard Haslag , James McCormick  and John W. Turner filed a class action law suit against Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing, Inc. (FHTM), the company, the owners, officers, some employees and distributor leaders.  In blistering language and drawing on the recent legal actions by the States of Montana and North Dakota, the suit alleges that FHTM is, and always has been, an “illegal pyramid” scheme and is a “Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization.”

The video on this page is part of a business presentation of the Fortune Hi Tech Marketing compensation plan by Presidential Ambassador, Joel McNinch, that is quoted in the lawsuit.

Others named in the lawsuit are:

Paul C. Orberson, Jeff Orberson, Thomas A. Mills, David Mills, Billy Stahl, Simon Davies, Ruel Morton, Todd Rowland, Ashley Rowland, Todd & Ashley, Inc., Mike Misenheimer, Steve Jordan, Joel McNinch, Chris Doyle, Ken Brown, Jerry Brown, Bob Decant, Joanne McMahon, Terry Walker, Sandi Walker, Sherri Winter, Trey Knight, Kevin Mullins, Scott Aguilar, Molly Aguilar, Nathan Kirby, Dwayne Brown, Aaron Decker, Susan Frank, Ramiro Armenta, Angelina Armenta, Alexis Adame, Teresa Adame, Darla DiGrandi, Matt Morse, Matt Barrett and Roberto Rivera

The suit seeks to close down the company through injunctive relief and recover treble  damages, costs, and attorneys’ fees.

The law firm for the class action suit is:

1400 PNC Plaza
500 West Jefferson Street
Louisville, Kentucky 40202
(502) 540-2300 (Telephone)
(502) 585-2207 (Facsimile)

Copy of the full law suit can be downloaded here.

Interested persons can follow the development of the law suit at Justia Dockets and Filings.

Mr. Jason Baker, who was identified to me at FHTM as general counsel for the company was not immediately available for comment.

Updated: September 4, 2010

According to an article and video at, a Louisville Kentucky TV station, Former Kentucky Attorney General Chris Gorman, a Fortune “legal advisor,” had this to say:

“The best thing and the fairest thing for everybody is to try the case in the court and that’s what we intend to do. We intend to fight this case vigorously,” Gorman said.

Gorman points out that Dish Network was giving a presentation at Fortune Fest, disputing the lawsuit’s claim that fortune doesn’t have a sales partnership with dish.

He says cease and desist lawsuits are now settled.

“Today, we’re doing business in Montana. Montana does not think we’re a pyramid. Otherwise they would not let us do business,” said Gorman.

Gorman did not mention that in the settlement with Montana, FHTM was required to make significant changes to how the company does business in the State, pay a fine of $100,000, and to refund up to as much $840,000 to Montana participants.

Editor Opinion

While I am hardly qualified to judge the merits of the case on solely legal issues –  like whether the suit has been properly filed, whether the jurisdiction is correct, and whether it is properly framed, etc. – there is little question in my mind that this presents a huge business challenge for FHTM and consequently, for all of their distributors. Regardless of the outcome of the case, with this news capping the other recent legal challenges to the ‘business opportunity,’ it is bound to become very difficult, if not close to impossible to effectively recruit.  Without new recruits, it would seem doubtful that the company can stay in business.

At the heart of the lawsuit is the issue that all networkers need to understand. For a company to stand legal scrutiny, distributors (associates, IBOs, IRs, representatives, whatever) cannot in any way shape or form be compensated for recruiting other distributors.

The law suit makes this allegation that could, in fact, be made against many MLM companies:

85. Fortune’s commission structure makes this possible by allowing IRs [Independent Representatives] to earn commissions on sales without ever actually selling anything to a customer outside the Fortune Pyramid. In fact, prospective IRs are told while joining Fortune that they must purchase certain products to earn their first “customer points” and therefore allow bonuses to be paid to their sponsors.

While the FHTM compensation plan ties the payment of commissions and bonuses to getting customers (at least 3) as measured by “customer points,” in actual practice, the lawsuit alleges this:

90. These “active personal customers” need not be actual human beings, let alone human beings outside of the Fortune Pyramid; rather, a product or service purchased from Fortune by the IR him or herself qualifies as a “customer” for purposes of allowing IRs to receive commissions and bonuses. The “customer points” assigned to each Fortune product or service determine how much of any given Fortune product or service must be purchased to qualify as one customer.

91. A “Customer Point Sheet” provided to new IRs explains what products or services may be purchased to qualify as a new “customer.” As an example, the purchase of $39.99 of True Essentials products by an IR counts as one “customer” and one “customer point.”

92. To obtain the required three customer points, new IRs are encouraged to merely purchase Fortune products and services themselves, rather than attempt to sell them to outsiders. Potential IRs are frequently told at recruiting meetings that they are already paying for the types of  products and services offered by Fortune – e.g., television, Internet service, cellular phone service,vitamins or travel – so they should simply switch from their current service provider to a product offered by Fortune.

93. Although one of the three “customers” purportedly must be “other than his/her own personal or household account”, Fortune neither tracks nor enforces this policy, and the policy itself permits this customer to be another IR.

One of the 12 Critical Success Factors I teach in the MLM The Whole Truth Special Report and Course, is “#8 – Are there Real Customers?”  The test is essentially this: can it be demonstrated that there exists a significant percentage of customers buying the company’s products or services who do so even though they are NO part of the compensation plan?

If the answer is ‘yes,’ probably any other legal issues that may exist can be fixed.  If the answer is ‘no,’ any other legal manipulations may not suffice to prevent the company from being attacked as illegal.

I am actually shocked at how many companies would probably fail that test if the true numbers were known.  And, I am then further concerned as to how many distributors have no idea that the company is then vulnerable.

It is also important for network marketers to understand that each of the named defendants, including company principals, officers, management, and distributor leaders,  are being accused of participating “in a pattern of racketeering activity,” not just the FHTM corporation:

173. Each defendant is a “person” for purposes of RICO, 18 U.S.C. § 1962, because each defendant is, and was at all relevant times, an individual or entity capable of holding legal or beneficial interest in property.

174. All of the defendants in this action collectively form an “enterprise” under RICO, 18U.S.C. § 1962, in that they are a group of individuals and entities associated in fact, although not a legal entity.

175. In the alternative, the enterprise consisted of Fortune, which is controlled by defendants Paul C. Orberson, Jeff Orberson, Thomas A. Mills, David Mills, Billy Stahl, and Simon Davies.

176. In the alternative, the Fortune Pyramid is an enterprise, in that it is an association in fact of all defendants and others which, although not gathered under any legal entity, operates the illegal pyramid scheme to draw new investors to Fortune.

177. The defendants engaged in a pattern of racketeering activity by participating in a scheme and artifice to defraud in violation of the mail and wire fraud statutes, 18 U.S.C. §§ 1341 and 1343.

If this line of argument stands, distributors who plan on succeeding and achieving top leadership status had better be sure that the company they represent can stand rigorous legal scrutiny for reasons other than it makes good business sense – they can end up being sued or even going to jail along with the principles of the company!

I welcome informed and thoughtful comments below.

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{ 84 comments… read them below or add one }

Disillusioned Rep January 28, 2011 at 10:29 pm Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

Dave, you do hear some of that “God-given” stuff from some reps, and certainly from Paul Orberson himself and some of the other higher-ups, but it really depends on who is doing the presentation, which in part also seems to have some relationship to what part of the country it’s being done in. The company is headquartered in the Bible Belt, so you hear it more from reps and managers there, but here on the west coast, this element is largely absent.

Personally, I just ignore that as people’s own personal shtick. If people want to believe that anything was brought to them by God, or a pet rock, or anything else, then that is their right.

If the concept and execution of the company are good, and people don’t try to shove the religion aspect down my throat or demand that I do that with others, I’m happy to let people have whatever beliefs they want, and even to bring them into their own personal business matters if they wish.

It is *not* required in any way to follow suit in FHTM, and most of the people I’ve met in the business do not even mention it.

What I do care about, however, is the lies and half-truths and deliberate misimpressions that have been fostered – and that they use the religious focus to mislead people into believing that they would never do anything wrong.

In FHTM’s defense I will say this. In the time I’ve been with them, I have in fact seen them make substantial changes in the official marketing materials and policies and procedures that are clearly intended to comply with the hand slaps they got from Montana and North Dakota. They have indeed edited the compensation plan and what few other aspects of customer and order tracking to further emphasize product sales over recruiting. Communications from HQ have indicated quite strongly that anyone deviating from their tightened up operating rules *will* be in hot water. It’s just that further down the food chain, that still hasn’t seemed to fully trickle down, and the compensation changes haven’t been sufficient to actually motivate people to emphasize the products and services to anyone other than potential recruits.

I have believed that they really have been trying – but they still aren’t where they need to be, and that leaves them in a position where I question the legality of what they’re doing the way they’re doing it, and I don’t want to be falling into that same trap myself.

I do hope they are able to get this all sorted out in a way that’s both legal and fair to everyone.


Dave Broskey January 27, 2011 at 1:32 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

What scared me is the way they tell the reps that God made this opportunity available to you. I went to one of those trainings and was mortified by what I heard.


Disillusioned Rep January 26, 2011 at 4:58 am Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

I’m technically an FHTM rep, and all I can say is that despite the lawsuits, etc., I still get text messages and emails every day from both the company and individual defendants all *entirely* focused on recruiting, recruiting, recruiting.

It is true that the company change the compensation structure a couple of times, and the official recruiting videos, to somewhat de-emphasize the recruiting and to mention product sales first, so that it *looks* as if they are more focused on sales than recruiting now, but in reality, the communications from within and the “trainings” are unceasingly 100% about bringing in more and more bodies, and whitewashing what a “customer” is.

And most reps use other presentation videos that still emphasize recruiting more – and more than the “official” videos do.

What’s more, a few months ago, when it came to light how many BBB complaints there were, the company actually sent out a special link to all reps asking us to use it to counteract those claims! Somehow it set up automatic kudos at the BBB if you clicked on the link they sent out. WTF???

Yes, they were literally stacking the deck at the BBB in their own favor. I was stunned out of my mind.

It’s unbelievable.

Then for some reason I still can’t get an explanation for, they cut off the startup bundle I purchased that is what is necessary to qualify to get paid if I do do any business, so I’m screwed if I even try, because the compensation plan is now structured in such a way that you earn *nothing* for your first 12 recruits and anything they buy. In order to even qualify to get paid now, I’d have to purchase more products at an even higher rate than I was charged initially, and keep on buying them.

They continue to babble about “partnerships” with major companies like the cell phone carriers, and try to create the impression that there are agreements with hundreds more through the Rewards Mall, when the reality is that mall is nothing but a big commercial shopping cart website that anyone who wants to can sign up to use, and there is no agreement whatsoever between Fortune and any of the companies that are part of it.

I’ve even gotten screwed there, out of bonus points I ought to have earned on some purchases made through the affiliate link. Fortune changed something about how the cart works, and bye-bye went my points. The current cart also only offers a fraction of the name-brand companies they were first promoting that actually made the whole thing worthwhile.

The Entertainment Pack they also offered also dropped a high percentage of the companies that were part of it when I signed up, thereby rendering it virtually useless. Instead of paying $25/month, it’s cheaper to buy an Entertainment coupon book at something like a one-time outlay of $35, which offers virtually the same benefits, but at a fraction of the cost. The free companion airfares they claim to offer are pretty bogus, too, because the routes are *extremely* limited.

Another claim they make is that there is “no selling”. Well, duh! That’s because all they do is promote recruiting, and people are encouraged to buy everything they need themselves up front in order to qualify to get paid, and to present things to new prospects as if there’s not even an option to do otherwise.

The “outside” customers thing is a sham, too. Certain products are coded in a way that *makes* them “outside” vs for personal use, so you can still buy them all yourself – and people do. If it’s something you can resell outside their channels once you purchase it, like their True Essentials vitamins and supplements or the Envy skin and haircare line, it can count as an “outside” customer.

And that’s another lie they promulgate – that they don’t sell anything of their own, that it’s all outside companies. Hooey. Paul Orberson himself owns both True Essentials and Envy – and it’s damn near impossible to get paid on anything else you do unless you purchase substantial goods from one or both of those lines.

I have made no effort to promote this business because it’s become increasingly clear that it *is* a pyramid and a sham. I cannot in good conscience even try to promote something this blatantly illegal, particularly to friends.

It pisses me off that they’ll never even pay me the commissions I *have* already accumulated just from my own purchases because they haven’t hit the $25 minimum threshhold for a payout (which itself is illegal, as I understand it), and because I no longer make the required minimum purchases – despite the fact that *they* cut me off from those themselves!

I won’t sue them over it because I’d lose more doing that than I could gain – but imagine how much money they are raking in from other people in situations like this! It’s only a few dollars for me – but multiply that by the thousands of other reps who will never be paid anything because they don’t “qualify”, and you’re into a hell of a lot of money. And I’m sure they’re counting on the economic realities that it’s uneconomical to sue them over such small amounts of money.

I accept that most people will not make money in an MLM. That’s the reality of life; most people won’t put a lick of effort into a business like this, and that is not the fault of *any* of these companies. I really don’t see that as an issue, or the fact that people in the upline also profit from what the downline does. All businesses work this way to an extent. Tell me another company where the rank and file earn as much as the top executives, and I’ll tell you you’re a liar, because the world doesn’t work that way. The only way to get paid more *anywhere* is to work your way up – emphasis on the word “work”, and the people at the top *always* earn more than everyone else.

What *is* a problem is a compensation structure that includes things like earning only $0.50 total when someone signs up for a new cell phone plan instead of the percentage of their actual bills that is promised by the recruiters and “training” videos, and other shams in the compensation department.

I believe that FHTM is going to go down like the Titanic, if they continue on with the way they are going.

And if they do happen to clean up their act and create a compensation plan that is both fair and legal, I’ll be happy to get to work, because the fundamental idea of what they are doing still appeals to me a lot. I’m just not holding my breath waiting for it to happen.


PICKLE January 21, 2011 at 8:10 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

Alright is my question to everyone defending them.. Prove it.. not in your words in your paycheck multiple ones black out crutial things to your name but post them here.. lets see.. you do that you may make some of us belivers…..


Barbara Bushe December 23, 2010 at 6:03 am Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

Another blistering class action has been filed yesterday in California. Merry Christmas FHTM attorneys.


Ryan December 9, 2010 at 3:19 am Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

In my mind, here’s how FHTM logically works.
Well lets see, a low cost to join, nothing is required for personal purchase and all customers (100%) can be outside. Unless I opt. otherwise and mix it up. That makes for a very cost effective way of starting a business. What are the products and services? Ah, ok! well understood things, such as cable TV, cell phones, etc. etc. Not saying there is some “advantage” (it’s just the same) for buying them from me, except that I happened to ask a person for thier business and they said “yes” and I made it easy to do business with. I also figure better me, than the store workers who really may not care anyway. Ok, so I only need 10 customer points = roughly 10 customers, great! I don’t like selling directly anyway to be perfectly honest. So it’s great the services are monthly, which makes for great annual sales.
Ok, now with helping 12 people do the same, (own a business) which I did (took a few months) it amazed me how
complicated many of them made this (and difficult). I refused to quit and worked my way to “Regional” where you actually get paid to promote (or as you say recruit). I’m now happy with a little extra income and I have a small and growing team. It’s not easy teaching other people’s employees to be a business owner, even if it is part-time, and just a second income. I now enjoy spending more than 80% of my time helping my team, teaching them, working with, and supporting them. This is not a stay at home business. Oh, where else do you see upper management so concerned about your success? So logically, we gather a few loyal customers each and help others do the same. I guess what part of the phrase “network marketing” as a viable method of direct selling don’t people understand? It’s very legal, and if there’s an issue with the comp. plan, then well, it’s hard to imagine demotivating reps. from promoting this easy and great opportunity. If there’s a problem with accounting accuracy (debt/equity) FHTM is still just fine. If there’s a problem with rep. success rates, then makes you wonder why so many companies are leaving the US then doesn’t it? Maybe the reason Michigan is suffering is because of the huge turn-off the people (&Unions) are to companies. We all need to look in the mirror…and ask ourselves…would you want to be in business with yourself? I can tell you from each post who I’d work with and who I wouldn’t, just by reading each comment. There’s a lot of business philosophy being thrown out, though to say what is “legal” and what is not, is taking it way to far.


Cody December 6, 2010 at 11:42 pm Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

I was involved in FHTM for about one year. In that year I became an Executive manager. I recruited and recruited to make a pay check and literally made myself sick trying to “double” each month so I could make a decent amount of money. I went full time and my life seemed to be falling apart! Apparently in the end, according to my leaders (in canada) I was being a bit of a wimp and not “calling enough.” I put 39 people in my downline personally and found myself talking prospects out of joining knowing full well they probably didn’t have what it takes to do FHTM. Leaders then said it wasn’t for me to decide who can or cannot do this business. However it is hard to “dupe” your friends into a business they will probably never do just so you can get a $400 signing bonus..

My last night in FHTM was at a Bob Proctor event in Edmonton Alberta where bob spoke of the “law of attraction” for 3 hours. Which I do enjoy.. However the 2 hours after that event where a National Manager with FHTM (who I will not mention) was absolutely ridiculous. Nothing more than a 2 hour high pressure sales pitch to enter the next “program”., Is this a cult??? Or better yet ARE NATIONAL SALES MANAGERS MAKING MORE MONEY OFF PROGRAMS THAN RESIDUALS???? I saw the writing on the wall that night when we were finally aloud to leave at mid night…. Personal development is important but this is nothing more than a cash cow for a few leaders.. Honestly I hope FHTM crashes and burns, and I know a few friends would hate to see me write that, but I still think it.

If you swung your downline over from another company like excel your probably doing pretty good with fortune, if you didn’t your probably wondering why your downline report and residual income is shrinking monthly. My leader never said it….. but I know he was thinking it.

Folks dont quit your day job like they try to get you to do, if you want to try i, go for it. But don’t depend on it. To many people are smelling a rat and its hard to recruit people to join something like that. I don’t think its going to get any easier, so keep your job! They may say a JOB stands for “just-over-broke” but thats better than BROKE!

In conclusion if FHTM isnt about recruiting then why are my paychecks not still rolling in, an executive manager should be collecting something shouldn’t they…. Well i’m not. There excuse would be “your just not tough enough Cody” Strangely I was the “golden boy” of the canadian organization for months, now I guess im a washed up, has-been mlm’er!


rich November 17, 2010 at 1:40 am Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

and after reading all the posts wow i have freinds that have made alot of money in fhtm and been a member for 6 months but wow 95%of you reps on here sound like your from a cult like dan said. i was in it for the money and now i see for what the biz is and i dont like it and it’s kinda creepy reading some of you guys. there has been many things ive seen and heard and found out that were ALL lies and it has stemned from the top down. for all of you that are still reps. WAKE THE @#$% UP! THEY TAKING ALL OF YOU FOR A RIDE. and today all the rep sites are DOWN! wonder if rep support will be open tomorrow lol


Larry Zeglier October 30, 2010 at 6:04 am Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

What does this old article from 2005 have to do with a class action lawsuit against FHTM? Mr. Isaacs is not even a plaintiff in that lawsuit.


Jerry October 3, 2010 at 7:08 am Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

As a Rep. for FHTM I did quite well for awhile. However when I became a Executive Director Joel McNinch made a conscience effort to ruin my downline. I like to say he is a love em and leave em kind of guy (so it is personal for me). I honestly believe Paul Orberson and Tom Mills are honest but unfortunately gulible to Joels BS. And Paul and Tom took and take his word as truth on to many issues. They lost a lot of loyal good people when they lost me and Dave.


Dan October 1, 2010 at 12:37 pm Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

Kevin Mullens once said Misenhiemer brought in thousands of people into FHTM by his 3rd month, Kevin also said I don’t even know if that is possible……..well Kevin if people only knew the truth. I think I will enlighten some folks. Misenhiemer didn’t start as a Managing rep, from the bottom; instead he was given a higher position in the company by Paul Orberson after he transferred his already established downline. A downline that took at least 10 years to build from a bankrupt MLM company called Excel Telecom. In fact, a handfull of the leaders in FHTM transferred over their downline and were offered a higher spot in the company that is not normally offered to an average rep. Instant success, or at least that is how Mullens makes it appear. This all would not be possible if Excel didn’t go bankrupt and eliminated their sales force or what FHTM reps call a (your own business). So don’t believe your leaders when they says it’s a business you own and you can treat it however you like, you are still at the mercy of the business owner and his dealings.

It is generally accepted that a cult is a group of people who unite around the charismatic leadership and ideology of a particular leader or group of leaders. Those leaders often manipulate people in the organization in order to achieve their desired results. They mix religion into MLM to create an elaborate ruse for one’s personal agenda. We as sheep are prone to stray. We come utterly helpless, no sense of direction of where to go. That is how we are, we become bewildered and we become confused, especially during a once bad economy. We don’t know what direction to be going. Sometimes it’s easy to follow the first thing that sounds familiar, such as religion. So, anyone who enters the ministry as a false Sheppard, entered that shepherding ministry for personal interest of ambition such as (Money). Instead of helping souls to be saved they are robbing people of the very opportunity of salvation because of their false teaching. They will say if you believe this, do this or try that, become sincere, work harder, don’t listen to this person or that person, don’t take no for an answer. They teach there is some other way into the sheep pen, while at the same time robbing you from theTruth. I 100% support what the former reps are doing.


LOL September 30, 2010 at 8:07 pm Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

Yeah, Isnt that funny how when the goverment forces them to make changes they only do enough to satisfy them. Then a class action gets filed a few weeks later and they change there pay AGAIN Two weeks after they have a convention that they were served the class action papers. With a crowd that was not sold out as it has been exagerated. So in four weeks after being served they are trying to address what makes them illegal again? If they were legal to start with then why all of the changes?
How funny! Yet, from what I can tell, he gave a $100 discount in joining but took that same amount of $100 away from the managers in the bonus area! And he is being hailed as a hero?!!

Now all of the people who are joining now wont have any chance to get in on the training monies either? Now how fair is that? So once again the company acts like they are doing you a favor but are screwing you and smiling about it! Wake up people!
So let me get this straight, until you do get to the next level ( which only maybe 30% of the reps do)
You will need to get 10 points at a bundle price of $250 a month. So with those numbers you will need at least 200+ people in your team getting at least the minimal points to get your monthly bill paid for. You still have not made your money back. Why if he was going to take bonus monies away did he not do it from the top people?
So then if you are a Reginal and are tickled that you and everyone is getting a raise with the percentage commissions, good for you, but why were you not paid that in the beginning?
Lets do the numbers. If you have in say four months 50 people join your team a month. You make $200 per person and get paid $10,000 in recruting bonuses a month. But your checks for products will be if everyone has lets be nice and say $200 a month each, you still are only making $800 a month ( and that is using the double bonus program) it will be only $400 otherwise on levels 1-7.
According to the laws of what an illegal pyramid is this still by any standard is still illegal because you make why more on recruting than you do on products!
How pissed off I would be if I had joined this company in June and then have it all change in July and then again in October. If this was a regular company that was jerking you around on your pay you would not be very happy. In fact the goverment would be stepping in and suing you.
Even though they gave a raise on the product sales, it still does not help the fact that they have made it harder for new people to make their money back if they work it at a pace that most people do. So this will only make your teams get smaller and harder to build.
The only people making money are the people at the top…..Period!
Has anyone seen or heard an appology from Paul for the lies has been spreading that the company was debt free? That he never will be in debt because he has so much money? That he would never put the company in jeopardy by using it as collateral for a debt?
How do you think this makes the preacher guy , Kevin Mullens feel that he has been in front of thousands telling these lies that his boss told him to tell?
Talk about selling your soul to the devil Kevin! Are you really ready to go to jail for Paul Orberson? What about all of the other people listed as defendants? Most of these are good people that Paul has dragged down with them!
All of these people have been names in this lawsuit because of the lies they have been spreading and you are telling me that they are not worried about going to jail for doing what Enron did?
How is this any different than what Bernie did?
Next time my friend ask me to go to one of those meetings, I am going to ask the hard questions like how can you in good concious ask people to pay to work for a company and invest their time when you know they have a less that 10% chance of ever really making it to the arena of good pay that everyone brags about.?
I cant stand to see him chasing the dream of getting a car when less than 1% of the company has ever qualified for one. This is just too sad!


unselfish September 29, 2010 at 9:24 am Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

Wow….I’ve heard as of 10.01.2010 FHTM is making some major changes in there comp plan. Anybody have any input in regards to this?


told you September 23, 2010 at 3:47 pm Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

While all of you are talking about what a great christian man he is and how all he has done is tell the truth and now all of these bad people are after him.
Lets go over this
1. Did he have contracts with these companies? No
Even though Dish came to the convention they is still a third party deal there.
2. Did he lie about having deals with others? Yes
3. Did he come out of retiremnet to do this? No, read the Millionaire Blueprint and you will see he said he started this before he left Excel
4. Was he married when he met the wife he has now? Mmmmm…
5.When he brought this big guys in did he give them better deals than what all of us have been offered? The lawsuit will show the truth I believe
6.Did he pay to be in all of the magazines they have been in? I believe they have!
7. Why is he now changing the plan to make themselves legal? Because they were not legal before
8 Were you ever informed that you were signing a comtract saying you could never sue FortuneDid you sign a policy and Procedures? No you did not because the only way you could have known about it is when you bought the deal and read way in the back once you bough a back office
9.Do you know why Peter lamas really left? I was not because they could not keep up!
10. Here is the biggest lie of all. Where you ever told and believed the company was debt free and had never been in debt? WELL THST IS THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL!
Read the page. It has a copy of what the bank files.
FHTM has used the entire business as collateral!
So you can be out of business tomorrow suckers!


Jeff September 18, 2010 at 10:55 am Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

I was in Amway for many years, and it seemed that they were continuously handling lawsuits and class action suits. They even had the Federal Trade Commission going after them. But, they survived!…and still survive today. I believe FHTM will survive as well.
Paul Orberson is a strong Christian. He was facing cancer a few short years ago, and is in full remission. If that dosen’t make someone closer to their Maker, then nothing will!
I am impressed with FHTM…the people, the products and services.
But, they will always have nay sayers. I have yet to see any company that dosen’t have any negative press.


ACL September 17, 2010 at 5:49 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

I’m an FHTM representative, and statements like “over 95% of them will make nothing” gets me a little steamed. Everyone in this company has the same opportunity as everyone else. However, you are your own business, and if you aren’t willing to invest any time and effort you will not make any income! How is this different than paying say, $2M for a McDonald’s franchise then deciding you weren’t going to open the doors next Tuesday? How much money would you make that day and is that McDonald’s fault? People never fail to surprise me, some folks I thought would be super never take the initiative and some I thought wouldn’t cut it are doing insanely great. I have spoken to many people with a negative attitude or who want something for nothing and encourage them NOT to join. This is MY business and I don’t want people like that on my team. I came to FHTM with a 30-year corporate background and find this company is something rare – a meritocracy where anyone can succeed IF they are willing to invest and believe in themselves. This is not the way most businesses run (though I wish they did) and I suppose why so many folks just don’t get it. No wonder 1% of the people in the US control 96% of the wealth – next year it will likely be 97%. Might they know something you don’t? If our founding fathers had that attitude we would all be speaking with a British accent and singing God save the Queen.


Luis Valesquez November 13, 2010 at 8:05 am Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

The Income disclosure statement is NOT about opportunity (which is not the same for all) – it is about REALITY.

I do agree that you find the company rare. It is rare they have managed to stay under the regulators radar for so long with so few making the big bucks.

Everyone quotes Robert Kiosaki like he is another god. His teaching are about him making money too. Wake up guys…it isnt that difficult to understand the truth if you take the blinders off for just a few seconds.


Tex September 16, 2010 at 5:28 pm Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

Amway had a Dish channel at one time. “Had” being the operative word.


cn September 11, 2010 at 3:24 pm Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

I am sorry, but he found out about the lawsuit from an investigative reporter that was there and he used this knowlege to make those statements to make everyone feel sorry for him. You can see the broadcast on whas11.
He is NO prophet!
From what I have read he has been lying about the deals he had with Dish saying there attorneys spent three days going over his books and then the owner of Dish flew out to sign the contract himself. Come on, he has been caught lying and who know what else has has been doing. I am sure that a case of this magnatude could not have been filed by such a huge law firm without being investigated!
I am looking forward to seeing who will opt and and out of this lawsuit when it gets to that point.
From the numbers that they offered, I would imagine alot of people will stay in and get there money back.
And I am sure those people are Christians too but that has not stopped them from being hurt.


Jerry September 13, 2010 at 10:30 pm Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

The DISH people coming to FHTM corporate and checking our company out is absolutely the truth.

We are also getting our own channel on Dish TV in October.November 2010, this direct from Dish TV representatives at Fortune Fest this year.


Ms. Paulie September 23, 2010 at 5:20 pm Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

anyone can buy a channel on Dish Network to promote their crap if they pay enough


cn September 23, 2010 at 8:00 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

Dude, they still dont have a contract, they sell for a third party. Dish will come out to do this with any large group that has the customers there. They did not fly out and look at the books. You should know this by now since Montana discovered the truth.
Paul has bought a channel on Dish and so they came out. That still does not mean that he has a contract with them other than for his own channel.


Butch September 11, 2010 at 1:24 pm Thumb up 0 Thumb down 15

It is amazing how prophetic Paul Orberson was at Fortune Fest the day before this frivolous lawsuit was filed. He stated that satan would attack this company and those associated with it because of his putting Christ first in his life and this company. He was absolutely right on target so he must be doing something right or the enemy would not be attacking him. God is good and he is on his side so we are confident that this will all turn out for the glory of God.


Tex September 11, 2010 at 2:46 pm Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0


I’ve heard the same BS from numerous Amway LCKs (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”), this is nothing new, trying to wrap yourself in Christianity while running an immoral, unethical, and illegal business. What better cover than try to look religious? LOL


cn September 11, 2010 at 11:44 am Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

I see where many have replied to some of these issues, but not one can answer any of the true legal issues I have metioned above. Is it because everyone wants to skirt these because they know this is what will bring the company down or are they affraid to really see the truth?
Can anyone show me a spot where any big name are coming to Fortune defence? What about the Ken Lewis and other goverment officials that are reps? Please show me where they are in regards to either defending this company or still promoting them in any way!


Tex September 11, 2010 at 5:54 am Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0


The biggest differences are:

1. Whether those reps or customers bought the stuff at retail or wholesale, and much more significantly
2. Whether you or your upline make money on the tools (see above note to Lou for the definition of tools).


Lauralia September 10, 2010 at 6:57 pm Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3

I sold Neo-Life Vitamins more than 30 years ago, and signed up 46 reps, all of whom signed up just to get their own product wholesale. What is the difference? And most small businesses fail in the first 2 years, and most people who get a college degree never work in the field their degree was in. So what? You sign up with Fortune, you buy the best bundle for you (Vitamins, Travelocity—just as in Neo-life I bought all my vitamins, water-purifier and even pots and pans through Neo-Life). What’s the difference?


Tex September 10, 2010 at 3:55 pm Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0


There is a common misunderstanding between the SIGNUP profit and the ongoing INTERNAL consumption profit. The FTC has not been 100% clear on this issue, but they apparently don’t have an issue with large ongoing internal consumption, but rather the signup profit:


louabbott September 10, 2010 at 6:45 pm Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

Good point, Tex.

And, of course, the FTC is only one of the many regulatory bodies that companies need to be concerned with. There is also the SEC, the FDA, and AGs in every State.

And, to complicate matters, they don’t all have the same idea as to what constitutes an illegal pyramid. But companies are definitely entering into higher risk territory when a large percentage of the revenue can be tied to purchases from other participants in the comp plan. Or worded differently, the various regulators want to see a significant percentage of sales to end users, again, that are not participants in the comp plan.

Companies are also entering a very dangerous area when they pay commissions on sales aids or for training as, by their nature, those items are would only be purchased by other representatives.


Tex September 11, 2010 at 5:51 am Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

Thanks Lou. I have been researching the MLM industry for over 5 years, after finding out Amway upline typically make several times more from the tools (sales aids, training) than from Amway, and as a result, most Amway IBOs don’t achieve a net profit until about the Platinum level, which means they have roughly 100 IBOs in their group, most of whom are losing money.

I have found the knowledge I’ve gained to be VERY useful in the lawsuit Amway filed against me in July 2010, where they falsely accused me of tortious interference for telling IBOs cheating by advertising on eBay the truth about what I call the ATS (Amway Tool Scam), as well as the fact they are cheating by posting their business online. The judge threw them out on their butt during the TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) hearing in August, with the trial scheduled for May, 2011. I expect to win at the trial, as well as win the counter suit against Amway for fraud.

You are also right about other agencies potentially being involved, but I have had trouble getting ANY of them involved. It is also true some states have different laws, there is a Tennessee lawyer trying to get a bill passed in the state legislature regarding minimum outside sales and not making any money on the tools. It should be noted some MLMs prohibit making money on tools (meetings, books, CDs, voice mail, web sites, etc.), as well as countries which severely restrict tool profit for Amwy (India) or prohibit it completely (UK).


Doug September 10, 2010 at 1:00 pm Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

I have a question for Jessica or any FHTM rep.

Joe signs up 12 people himself and they each purchase the quallifying points to become active.Nothing more.

Bill signs up his 3 mandatory people( and they purchase the required points) and then Bill sells 9 people roadside assistance,travelocity trip etc(without them becoming reps),

who makes the most money?

If Joe makes more money because of the people he signed up as opposed to the product that Bill sold, then that is why there is legal problems.

Here is a quote directly from fortune downline webpage:

•There is no direct selling. You’re simply recruiting prospects and encouraging and training them to meet the minimum requirements for maximum residual income.

I think this statement says it all.The fact that recruitment is emphasized over product sales is a big reason why they will continue to have legal woes.


Tex September 10, 2010 at 7:20 am Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0


There are plenty of people complaining about the lack of Amway retail sales. There are lots of other internet sites besides this one.


You need to read this site if you think you’re alone, because you aren’t:


Dick September 9, 2010 at 4:40 pm Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

Here is what I am struggling with – Is it ethical or moral to recruit someone into the company when you know that 29% will lose all their investment – 95% will average $3,100. income, but probably spend that much in travel, marketing, etc. and not make any profit. How can you sleep soundly when you know that 95% of the people you are bringing into the company will not make anything and that they could buy the same product for about the same price at , say RadioShack for example??

Those concerns are probably what is holding me personally back in Network (Multi-Level) Marketing, but I suppose that’s just me. Strange I never see too many other people with the same concerns however.


sickin LA September 13, 2010 at 6:30 am Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

I have all of the same concerns as you do. It is very sad that FHTM tells you to work your warm market (friends and family) even though over 95% of them will make nothing or spend more than the little they get. It makes me sick that FHTM leaders know what they are doing but only care about what ends up in their pockets.

On another note – Paul Orberson did not come up with this business model. He stole it from Excel where he was a rep last. I get sick to hear all of these people put him on a pedestal.


Betty Newbold September 9, 2010 at 3:41 pm Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7

I find the continued attacks on FHTM more than a little curious; particularly in the area of the customer acquisition. The truth of the matter is that no other MLM had this concept and the other companies know that it is a forward-thinking, futuristic way of doing business. And Paul O. was the one with the vision. What I would like to know is why, when I was an Amway rep, no one filed a suit about us being made to or encouraged to buy all of our household products from ourselves?! I never sold any of the Anway products, only put in my weekly orders for my own ‘soap’ products. Where were the MLM police then? And I bet the practice is still ongoing.


Bunny Marzena October 30, 2010 at 6:01 am Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

That is such BS. Bernie Maddoff was out to make him, his family and all of his closest friends rich. Same with FHTM and Paul Orberson. Unfortunately with the recession upon us for the past 3 years – many states dont have the resources to investigate and shut down FHTM.

Just because a pyramid scheme exists for 10 years DOES NOT MAKE IT LEGAL….that is all part of the falsity and hype needed to generate growth.

Betty – this is not forward thinking. Paul took the compensation plan from Excel……it isnt his own idea as he would like you to believe. How can people be so intoxicated by him?

If you think anyone starts an MLM out of the kindness of their heart without their own pockets in mind you are very ignorant and naive.


Tex September 9, 2010 at 10:25 am Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

This reminds me very much about the way Amway is run, although Amway has ripped off millions of people for several decades, to the tune of 10s of billions of dollars. Read about it on this website: and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don’t get scammed. Also, if you have been an IBO within the past 4 years and would like to join a lawsuit against Amway, see

Amway is a scam, and here’s why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam.

As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products. This was made illegal in the UK in 2008, but our FTC is unable to pull their heads out of their butts to stop it here.


Mike R. September 9, 2010 at 1:06 am Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

Don’t be so quick to bury FHTM. Look at how many times Amway, Pre-Paid Legal, Mannatech and many, many other MLM companies have been sued or shut down over the years, yet have survived.

FHTM business is one of the few that makes sense. Do you think companies like Verizon, AT&T, GE, DuPont, All State, Dish TV and countless others would do business with a bunch of crooks?! These Fortune 500 companies are dying to find new customes and FHTM figured out a way to do just that for them. In return these companies are willing to pay for these new customers through FHTM. The money that reps are getting is what they call “commissions” for products and services being moved…not for signing people up.

However, one must still go out and work, which is something most people like the ones bringing this law suit aren’t willing to do.


Bunny Marzena October 15, 2010 at 8:15 am Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

To clarify the record: The wireless companies (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, etc) DO NOT DO ANY DIRECT business with FHTM. As an IR you get your wireless through Simplexity that is an affiliate of another company that does business directly with the carriers. I am so sick of hearing reps say, “AT&T wouldnt do business with FHTM, if FHTM was illegal” The fact of the matter is that AT&T and others dont even know who FHTM is. Fortune lost many vendors for illegally using their logos…i,e, GE.

This article just came out in USA Today:


watchdog September 8, 2010 at 12:02 pm Thumb up 8 Thumb down 4

Lou, thanks for sharing. Doesn’t seem like FHTM will have a chance on this one. I’ve seen many reps become their own customer in this outfit in order to be compensated. I don’t think recent changes to how customers are obtained will matter.

Also, I couldn’t help but notice some of the comments made seem identical, like from the same person, but with different names, you might take a closer look at the I.P.or location.

Thanks 🙂


Jerica10 September 9, 2010 at 8:52 am Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6


From what do you draw your conclusion that FHTM doesn’t stand a chance on this one?


Doug September 8, 2010 at 11:43 am Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

First off Bernie Madoff was going for 8 years before he was caught and subsequently
shut down and jailed.

Whether fhtm is legal or not , the income disclosure statement says it all.

71% of all reps earned at least 1 commission or bonus check
(I guess 29% made nothing)
95% (65%if you take off the people that made nothing) averaged $3,100.00/yr
4.5% (executive sales manager) averaged $31,000.00/yr
and the last .5% are the people that actually make the money.
Funny how they don’t mention these things at their meetings.

As for fhtm being perfectly legal,why were they forced to make changes to their business practices and refund money to be allowed to operate in Montana?
I’ll tell you why,because even if they are legal in writing,they aren’t when it comes to business practices and the statements made by representatives.


Jerica10 September 8, 2010 at 10:05 pm Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

To compare what Bernie Madoff did to a Network Marketing company is comparing apples and cranberries! Bernie was out to make himself rich, and not sharing with anyone else.

FHTM is on a mission to help everyone enjoy having the ability to enjoy not only the satisfaction of being a business owner, but to enjoy the best that life has to offer. I honestly don’t know how you can compare the two. These situations are VASTLY different.


Doug September 9, 2010 at 10:53 am Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

The point about Bernie Madoff was that everyone keeps saying that FHTM must be legal because they have been around for several years. Well so , was Bernie Madoff.

The only person Orberson is out to get rich is himself(hence the $50,000.00/month salary) and his buddies at the top (hence the .5% that actually make enough to retire off of)
Got to hand it to him,pay yourself $50,000/month and tell everyone you’re doing it for them. genious

How come you didn’t address. the income statement.Less than 95% make enough to pay attention


Dennis September 7, 2010 at 11:41 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 9

Lou is obviously agenda driven. The fact he refers to the Fortune Pyramid over and over again proves this beyond a shadow of doubt. Pyramids are illegal. FHTM is still in business. If this was a truly unbiased report, the word alleged would be in your vocabulary. I’ve got a $100 bill for each and every one of you that wants to take me up on a bet that FHTM will make its 10th year anniversary. On the subject of 10th year anniversary, you all must think your government pretty incompetent to have let us run this long and not put a stop to FHTM if it were at all illegal.

Fact, when one achieves success they are the target of those who want to litigate their way to success by suing companies like FHTM.

Fact, the states who have files lawsuits are among the poorest states in the nation.

Fact, we are not distributes, we introduce customers through word of mouth advertising to the companies we market for. I have never installed a Dish. I have never delivered a phone to a customer. I have never gone a service call to a customer.

Fact, we are the #1 provider of customers for Dish. If we were a mostly self consuming company, with about 200,000 reps, how could we be their #1 provider? Funny how quickly math inevitably leads you to the truth.

Fact, companies like Monavé and other nutrition companies, because they are nutritional products that can be given out as samples, count as outside customer points according to Federal Law.

Fact, FHTM does not make the majority of its money through recruiting people, and the math supports this fact. On a $199 sigh up, about $560 in bonus are paid out. Any math wizards out there want to show me how they can make a business work with these numbers if the majority of your money came from the $199?

CN, give your liberal media a little more credit. These are highly publicly made statements, and in print to boot. Don’t you think someone would have called FHTM on it if they were false claims? Sorry you missed the “work” in NetWork marketing. Like many other bitter people I am sure you found out that it wasn’t NetGiveAwayMoney marketing and became disillusioned fast.

Barbara, you really shouldn’t have an opinion on a guy you have never met. I have met the man and he is a credit to the human race. I don’t directly blame you, it’s unfortunately human nature to attack what your not able to understand. As for why someone rich would get involved. Do you see Donald Trump stop looking for new business ventures just because he made a few million dollars? “Real” entrepreneurs are always looking for additional ways to solidify their finances. Some of us are never satisfied with achieving their goals and quitting on life. Some of us always have another goal to achieve.

cpmall88, sadly you have bought into the hype that network marketing is evil incarnate. There is nothing wrong in dreaming and working for more than what you have. It is obvious that you might have seen but didn’t listen to the business presentation. I can only make money when I have helped someone else make money first. This negates the possibility that I am making my money on the backs of others. If anything, me going to work for them for free, they are making it off my back, which I willing do each and every day.

If your post started out with I don’t know much about FHTM, then everything else after that is irrelevant. I would suggest you get yourself to watch a business presentation then have an informed decision. A properly structured network marketing company like FHTM is one of the few ways the average guy or gal can make a sustainable. substantial income. Far more than working a J.O.B.(just over broke) Look at the economy and the unemployment rate people. 95% of you are fighting over 5% of the worlds wealth. if your goal in life is to be a sheep and be like everyone else, I think a job is a great choice. Get out there and go to work building some else s dream. If you think you deserve to be fighting over that 95% of the wealth that 5% of the world enjoys, but you weren’t blessed with the massive capitol and luck it takes to run a traditional business, I suggest you take another look at network marketing.


louabbott September 8, 2010 at 8:29 am Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

Fact, Dennis: I have never called FHTM “the Fortune Pyramid” much less “over and over again” without saying “alleged” or “alleges” and placing it in quotes or blockquotes. You may want to read back over the post.

And yes, I do have an agenda. It is to get out the MLM industry news, whether it is popular or not. I think distributors (associates, IBOs, Independent Representatives, IRs, etc.) and prospective distributors (associates, IBOs, Independent Representatives, IRs, etc.) deserve that.


Jerica10 September 7, 2010 at 7:45 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

OK, I have had an opportunity to briefly review the legal document(s) surrounding this lawsuit, and, based on my preliminary review, I have no doubt that FHTM will come out victorious.

The allegations in the first few pages of that Complaint are simply not true.

So, let’s just sit back and wait….


louabbott September 8, 2010 at 8:33 am Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

Excellent, Jerica10. Perhaps reading the lawsuit would have been a good thing to do before all of your other posts.

So often in life we react rather than respond.


Jerica10 September 8, 2010 at 9:54 pm Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

The fact that I have read the legal pleadings does not change my mind about what I wrote. It only further solidifies my beliefs in what I wrote.

I still stand 100% behind everything I wrote.


Chris September 9, 2010 at 2:43 pm Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

Let it go pal! You sound obsessed and maybe possessed.


Larry Zeglier October 30, 2010 at 5:53 am Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

Jessica is definately possessed. I would love to see her own checks from FHTM. A copy of the residuals from last few months and the ones from recruiting? I would also like to see how much money she makes on residuals from those that quit her downline……Answer:ZERO people who quit FHTM stop buying their products – a known fact about MLM.

PS. Are you an attorney Jessica? The first few paragraphs of the lawsuit dont lay out the issues and do nothing but restate the statements made by the Montana AG in APril of this year.

“1. This is an action by plaintiffs on behalf of themselves and those similarly situated to recover damages caused by the defendants’ operation of an inherently fraudulent pyramid scheme.The pyramid scheme is fraudulent because it requires the payment by participants of money to
defendant Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing, Inc. (“Fortune”), in return for which participants receive (1) the right to sell products and (2) the right to receive in return for recruiting other participants into theprogram rewards which are unrelated to sale of the product to ultimate users
2. This action is brought on behalf of a national class of persons who serve or have served as independent representatives for Fortune, pursuant to the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, 18 U.S.C. § 1961-1968 (“RICO”), the Kentucky Consumer Protection Act, KRS
Chapter 367, and the laws of Kentucky.”

Do you even know the difference between an MLM and a Pyramid Scheme other than what your upline has told you?

cn September 7, 2010 at 6:05 pm Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

I just found out about all of this and have some things to add. While many of us joined Fortune without asking the major questions like, Can we see the contracts to prove you are who you say you are? Can you show us your checks from Excel to show what has been reported as being the truth? How do we know you did not pay these companies to print these stories in Success and Millionare Blueprint about you? Please prove this to us!
When I signed up a couple of years ago I was at many meetings where they told the story of Dish flying 23 attorneys out to look at the books for three days and then after giving Fortune a thumbs up even went as far to have the owner of Dish come out to sign the contract with Paul himself. This had to be true because we heard it from the NSMs and office people, RIGHT!?! So when the Montana orders came out showing that none of this could be true made all of us wonder what else did he lie about?
More and More info has come out about the lies that Fortune has been telling everyone.
I wish they would have just come out and cleared the air and told the truth. Paul never has and because of that the company has and will continue to suffer.

Mr. Tanner, I have heard all of the stories and have seen the list of named goverment people, Hollywood Stars and other high profile people yet I have never seen any of them come to the defense of Fortune? Did you see any of them at the convention? I would think these people would be on stage bragging about joining.
Did you see the wife of the former sec of state there? Her name is Betty Miles and I will bet you did not. I have been told that Fortune and the Miles had a falling out and she has taken her downline to another company.
So before you believe all of the hype and BS that you are being lead to believe , ask yourself, do you really know what you are saying to really be completely truthful?
If you have not seen these people with your own eyes, talked with them or have seen them on stage telling you their position with the company then dont speak for them. You are only spreading the lies even more.
If you dont think you can get in trouble for doing this type of stuff then ask the people who got named in this lawsuit and see how they would like to take their lies back right about now. It is not worth being sued to be a part of this company. Wonder if Paul is paying for their legal fees?
I personally still believe in Networking, but not so much in Fortune. For a self proclaimed Christian man to be caught in so many lies throws up way too many red flags for me and my family to stay involved.
I personally hope that this case against them at least gets people their money back and allows Fortune to start again on a truthful foot and learn from their decietful ways.
So to quote from Pauls own words that were posted earlier….he needs to follow his own rules.
Paul Orberson himself said it best….”If you are full of bull, keep your mouth shut!”
Well said Paul!


Barbara Bushe September 7, 2010 at 4:51 pm Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3


You sound way too pumped up from Fortune fest. You really should do your homework before telling us how great and ethical Orberson and FHTM are. Here is my question: Why would a successful gold broker for 20+ years even want or need FHTM? Makes no sense to me….



David Tanner September 7, 2010 at 3:51 pm Thumb up 4 Thumb down 5

Good reporting Lou. As a Fortune rep I congratulate you on a very factual, non-biased report.

I have been an investment broker for over 25 years. For the last 10 years, I have lived off of the residual income that I developed in my younger years of hard work. As one who understands networking and residual income VERY well (LOL) I have always kept an open eye towards the MLM industry, waiting and hoping that a company would be developed that would actually provide some product or service AT THE SAME PRICE that could be obtained elsewhere, yet market that product or service through the MLM distribution model so that residual income could be created. I agree with what Warren Buffett reportedly said, when asked why he purchased Pampered Chef, he stated that “Network Marketing is the best form of product distribution, bar none.”

I have found that company in Fortune and can assure you that the “structure” of the compensation plan is quite legal.

However, echoing what cpmall88 said above, one must also consider the “function of that structure” when determining legality. In other words, is what is written on paper, actually what is being preached and practiced in the field?

Unfortunately, Fortune, as well as every other Network Marketing company out there, has had its share of reps that have not complied with that structure and have brought the company under scrutiny. Has the company willingly looked the other way while this has been happening? I have no way of knowing. But then again, neither does anyone else that is posting here. That’s what the courts have to decide.

I have personally witnessed the company being very proactive in implementing oversight measures to ensure compliance going forward regarding the issue of business generated outside versus inside of one’s household and/or network.

Will this prevent future challenges to the legality of the company? Doubtful. Am I worried that Fortune is going to be shut down or damaged in any way? Not in the least.

By the way, our current Lt. Governor here in my state just joined Fortune. Also, the wife of our former Sec. of State has been a very successful Fortune rep for many years. There is also an Attorney General from another state that is also a Fortune Rep. Seems there are many bright minds on both sides of the issue,

Fortune has the structure in place to keep it legal, and I trust they will continue to have the integrity to enforce compliance. I have seen nothing, nor met anyone within the Fortune family that would cause me to believe that they are operating with less than 100% integrity.

But if this is not the case, if Fortune loses, the whole industry loses. And because of that, those of you in other MLM companies who are rooting for Fortune’s demise are actually rooting against yourselves.

Your success in your MLM business affects us, and ours affects you. Let’s ALL keep the MLM business a clean a profitable place for all to enjoy, and it is the greatest business model that exists in the world today, “bar none!”


Lee O'Hare September 7, 2010 at 9:33 am Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6

I have to admit, Jerica10 was a bit emotional in her defense of FHTM, but having just returned from Fortune Fest myself, I can understand her passion in desiring to defend our company. The sad irony is that those who are trying to take FHTM down are either 1) completely ignorant of the facts or 2) intentionally deceptive in their statements. The FACT is, we do have a genuine relationship with companies that we market for. One of the highlights of Fortune Fest was a presentation by Jim Summers, the National account manager for Dish Network and Amir Ahmed, the Senior Vice President of Dish Network talking about the incredible relationship Dish has with Fortune. As a matter of fact, they brought out the 20 or so employees that now staff the Dish customer service center in Danbury, Kentucky, that was just set up by Dish to handle the overwhelming volume of new customers FHTM is bringing to Dish. If that’s not a genuine partnership, I don’t know what one looks like. People need to do their homework before they start throwing out allegations that have no basis in reality.


Jerica10 September 7, 2010 at 6:38 pm Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5

Thanks, Lee, for your comments.

I guess rubbing elbows with all those regular folk in Kentucky who are now all millionaires was just an illusion to me.

I am very passionate about what I believe in, and I am not going to sit idly by while someone basically ridicules me for it….comparing a REAL opportunity to believing in Santa Claus. Haaahaaa


cpmall88 Gary Paricio September 9, 2010 at 5:36 pm Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

Those millionaires are making it on your passion. Have you actually seen their checks??


cpmall88 September 7, 2010 at 9:14 am Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3


I know that you are just laying out the information as it has happened. I have seen the FHTM meetings and all they do is hype the huge money that you can make and show checks. I also know that the numbers they put in their comp plan are extremely hard to obtain. There is a reason why over 90% of people are not successful!

Jerica10, Lou is just giving you the facts! You are sold out to a company/industry that you do not yet know very well. If you really figured out how the big guys make their money (on the backs of people like you who buy their pitch and then never make money), you would not be so defensive! You are defensive because you bought the DREAM and do not want to be wrong! I remember in grade school when someone told me there was no Santa Claus and I adamantly defended the case that there was. Later I was really hurt by the realization that Santa did not deliver those gifts.

I have over 6 years experience in this industry and I have learned more and more about it every day. I am with a competitor (not important who) and have learned a ton about the business. I learned that the people at the top that teach you the business are teaching you how to put money in THEIR pockets. I developed a marketing plan (from my college business education) that is opposite of what they teach and puts together a team that makes money.

I have talked with a top FHTM guy that followed Orbison from Excel. He told me that they tell reps to make sure they have purchased enough points to ensure bonuses. I have also talked with neighbors of the last “Majority Stock Holder” of Excel who enlightened the reps to jump ship because he knew what was coming. Orbison was one of the guys that voted to screw over all the reps from that company and walk away.

Bottom line is that if all you do is promote the minimum required to get paid bonuses and the like, then you will fall victim to the traps of the business. If the company does not police its policy and procedures and allows “self consumption”, then they will be breaking the law and it would be, by definition, an illegal pyramid. It is not the structure that determines it legality, it is the function of the structure that makes that determination.

Keep up the good work Lou.


Jerica10 September 7, 2010 at 6:34 pm Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

Haahaaa….I find this very amusing.

first of all, I know that Lou is just presenting the facts as he sees them…and having not read the entire case (and I’m not a lawyer, so even if I did, I might not understand it)

You think you know me because I am defending something I believe in. For your information, I have been in network marketing for many, many years, and have several successful businesses at the current time. So for you to say “You are sold out to a company/industry that you do not yet know very well.” is completely not true. I think I know this industry pretty darn well…I have made lots of money, and earned countless awards for my efforts.

You also say, “You are defensive because you bought the DREAM and do not want to be wrong!” Haahaaa…again, no true. I am defensive, because I am not going to let someone basically ridicule me for standing up for something I believe in. This company is debt-free and has been since the day they hung out their shingle…AND, they happen to have the highest Dun & Bradstreet rating you can get. They have donated money to local causes, as well as international ones.

Mary Kay Ash put it best when she said, “Stand for something, or you’ll fall for anything.”

So, if the whole FHTM world crumbles before me, which I doubt it will, I have lost absolutely nothing! And, my dreams will not be crushed.


Dan September 17, 2010 at 7:42 am Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

Like you said FHTM is debt free, being that is the case, any company can have a high rating with Dun & Bradstreet when your debt free. What gets me, is that the rating FHTM reps refer to is the one that was made back in 2004 to 2005. Living in the past!


the truth September 23, 2010 at 7:50 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

Guess what guys… Fortune is not debt free!
I just read the website about the class action and they have documented bank info posted that shows they have been in debt since 2005! These debts have not been paid off to this date.
Read all the way down on there and see they have put the whole company up for collateral!
I would be very mad if I was a rep! So the owner is not as good a guy as everyone wants you to believe.
I hope the plantifs win big. This lie is big so they should win everything and show these companies to never lie to the reps!
fhtmclassaction dot info


Luis Valesquez November 13, 2010 at 7:46 am Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

Fortune has been in debt since 2004. If you believe anything but you are blinded by the MLM BS. When a company has a loan from a bank and pledges the entire company, assets and revenues – IT IS NOT DEBT FREE!


Jerica10 September 7, 2010 at 7:01 pm Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5

Oh, I wanted to make one other point…

With the FHTM compensation plan, as you say “…how the big guys maketheir money, (on the backs of people like you who buy their pitch and then never make money)”…no one in my upline gets paid until I gather customers. THAT is what generates their compensation checks from recruiting people like me. The residual income comes when customers pay their monthly bills for the products and services they bought.

Just wanted to point that out, so someone who might be reading this gets the real story of how we are compensated, no someone else’s idea of it.

Thanks for providing this awesome forum, Lou!


THE TRUTH HURTS September 6, 2010 at 8:09 pm Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

Lou, You only printed the news that was on WHAS, Louisville, Kentucky. I know this station because I lived there for over 40 years. They only reported what was fact. A class action lawsuit was brought against FHTM. You did not make this up but just reported the facts.

We, that are wanting to grow a business need to know the facts. Sometimes, it may hurt but we must accept what has happened. I know we all want to feel that we have made the right choices but sometimes we find out that did not happen.

I am learning a lot from what you report and I feel it is MLM THE WHOLE TRUTH. I do not feel that you are trying to be the bearer of bad news but just reporting to guide us on the right path.

I am puzzled WHY a company does not have a legal team to advise them before they slip into something like this. I am not knowledgeable about FHTM but this should have been stopped before it got this far if something was not right.

The management may have had the best intentions but I find it strange that a person joining was not able to see and look throughly over the Comp Plan. I have been told this is a legal binding contract. Did they just ask the new reps to just trust them? This is a big puzzle to me.

I know that Network Marketing is a great concept but the owners MUST have all their reps in mind when a plan is made. This kind of bad news seems to happen often and it is heartbreaking to see peoples dreams crushed. It makes them hard to trust a reliable company that is doing all the right things.

Lou, maybe you can explain what this company should have done to prevent this kind of action. I do not feel that it was a surprise. I feel they were probably riding under the radar hoping that their shortcomings would never be discovered.

Lou, keep reporting the dangers and educate everyone so they will know the company they want to invest their time and money in for their future.

Someone mentioned that it takes hard work and that is true and I feel most want to have something for their time, effort and money invested. I know there can be a guide for us so we are making the right selections.

Our economy is weak and we must think of new ideals to prosper and Network Marketing can be just that. Help us make good decisions.

I spend a lot of time reading and educating myself and I feel that I have found a creditable company. I am now working to secure my future. It takes time but will be lasting. It is like losing weight. If you lose it slowly, it will last. That is what I want something that will last not only for me but for family when I no longer am able to work. The right company will do that for you.

Praying for success for everyones future.
God Bless
Maggie Kress


louabbott September 7, 2010 at 2:53 pm Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

Hi Maggie,

Thanks for imputing good motives to me! I appreciate that.

You say:

“I am puzzled WHY a company does not have a legal team to advise them before they slip into something like this. I am not knowledgeable about FHTM but this should have been stopped before it got this far if something was not right.”

You raise an interesting question. The interesting thing in this case is that very similar comp plans to the FHTM plan have been accepted by many informed networkers and company owners as legal MLM plans for many years. The most noted example being the Excel Communication’s comp plan. Although, there has always been at least some MLM legal experts who wondered how Excel survived scrutiny for so long and became one of the very few billion dollar companies while their comp plan had such a large percentage of the revenues coming from recruiting new representatives – rather than from the sale of the products.

Now, it looks like similar comp plans as to what Excel used for a decade or so are coming under scrutiny. The legal climate seems to be changing. FHTM in Montana is a prime example. This is what the Montana regulators stated:

“FHTM is not a multilevel distribution company, but rather a pyramid promotional scheme because the compensation each participant in the program receives is derived primarily from obtaining the participation of other persons in the program and not the sale of goods or services.”

In the case of Excel, the compensation always came “primarily from obtaining the participation of other persons” in the business. But Excel somehow eluded scrutiny because they tied the payment of the commissions to development of at least some “customers.” Regulators at the time decided that was sufficient to render the whole plan as legal.

FHTM has tried to do the same thing (as have other MLMs). Only I suspect that the same strategy is probably not going to continue to work.

So, as in many areas of law (and life), things aren’t so black and white. There are lots of gray areas. I am simply trying to make networkers aware of potential challenges so they can move forward with eyes wide open and avoid getting hurt, if at all possible.


Jerica10 September 7, 2010 at 8:34 pm Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7

This was quoted in the Complaint, before any hearings or settlement took place:

“FHTM is not a multilevel distribution company, but rather a pyramid promotional scheme because the compensation each participant in the program receives is derived primarily from obtaining the participation of other persons in the program and not the sale of goods or services.”


Jerica10 September 7, 2010 at 6:15 pm Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7


I don’t know how they do things in other parts of the country, but here where Iive, I have been provided with countless presentations explaining the compensation plan.

Shame on any person who invested their $299 (now $199) to join the company without looking at the plan first is a fool.

I have a question, how is it that investing a meager $199 is considered “having their dreams crushed”? Most people spend more than that in one month on cigarettes and coffee. To me, investing $199 and not getting anything out of it wouldn’t be considered “dream crushing”.

I invested my money just like everyone else, but I did my homework beforehand, and still managed to decide FOR joining this amazing company. I have even managed to make some money along the way.

Network marketing is not for everyone. What you get out of it is a direct result of what you put into it.

So, you guys just keep being right, and I will be rich.


Maggie Kress September 8, 2010 at 7:54 pm Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

Jerica10. since you addressed my comments I am responding again. I know nothing about FHTM but only reading the facts that were written. Lou or no one that commented on this site made this lawsuitl It was done by a legal team that represented some members of FHTM. What I have read, it sounds like the case was based on the same actions done by other Network Marketing Companies. Why this company was chosen rather than others, I do not know. Legal teams do not just make lawsuits without a cause so they must have found something that was not right.

I have been connected with Network Marketing over 20 years. My last one was for 14 years. I left them because I could not do the business the way they wanted and that was face to face. I am legally blind and my sight has gotten to the point that I can not do face to face but can do it on the computer. I gave it all up for a company that allows me to do everything online. I found this company after searching for what I saw as a company that I can work hard and soon make a little money. I love to work and meet new people and I can do that with Network Marketing.

Speaking of dreams. Dreams are not built around money but around the feeling of personal success. That success can be anything that you measure success with. Yes, money is important to me but not my major focus. I wanted a company that I also believe in, just as you do with FHTM. Keep that belief and I hope it all works out for you. I did a lot of homework before selecting my present company that I am now building. I feel in my heart that I have found a company that will not let me down. I am 73 and this will be my last attempt.

Jerica, no one is trying to say things about FHTM that was not true. The facts are the facts. Maybe you see them different and you may be right and the case will play out in the courts. I do not think they have been singled out as the scape goat for the industry. Something happened that it led up to this.

As I have said in my other comments, Lou is only doing what he should do as a Mentor and Leader. He is only giving the facts of what is going on in the industry. If we accept what is being said and stay informed, then he has full filled his purpose with MLM THE WHOLE TRUTH. We do not want him to say what we want to hear but the truth.

Jerica, I want to say thanks to you for giving me this opportunity to comment back to you. I would love to find success and share it with everyone I know. God has given each of us a purpose to full fill and this site is a way that can be done. Sharing and discussing problems will only lead to the betterment of all. Find a way to turn something we do not like into something that will only make us better.

God Bless
Maggie Kress


Jerica10 September 6, 2010 at 4:54 pm Thumb up 4 Thumb down 11

So, I guess when I was sitting in the audience at Fortune Fest at the Convention Center in Lexington, Kentucky this weekend, listening to the top executives (the number two and three executives, in person, less than fifty feet away from me) from the Multi-Billion Dollar, Fortune 500 Company, Dish Network, speak about the proud and wonderful partnership they have with Fortune…I guess it was all a dream! (????) Haaahaaa!

You are so disillusioned!

the reason why these plans don’t work for some people, and I stress SOME, is because they think it is a get rich quick scheme…and that they are going to be infinitely wealthy by sitting on their a$$es and doing nothing! It takes hard work and belief and faith…but it can and does happen. The so-called former representatives don’t make money because they are not willing to do the work!


louabbott September 6, 2010 at 5:10 pm Thumb up 16 Thumb down 3

OK Jerica 10,

You have made about 5 posts in a row now.

I understand your desire to defend your company, but If you can comment on the actual legal issues, it would serve the community better.



Jerica10 September 6, 2010 at 4:23 pm Thumb up 5 Thumb down 12

Oh, one more thought…

As for Pyramids….look around….the Government is a Pyramid, Corporate America is a Pyramid…(any questions)

Pryamids take money from people and don’t offer any products or services. Since when is marketing for a company, and linking customers to companies illegal???


Jerica10 September 6, 2010 at 4:19 pm Thumb up 6 Thumb down 13


Maybe you should do some more homework before you go spitting out all this garbage I see before me.

First of all, we link customers with companies…we are NOT “distributors”, as you have written many times in your article. So, I guess and are illegal, as well! (???) We are merely doing the same thing they do.

The business landscape is changing…the way we do business is changing…

I have learned throughout the years that people to spend their time putting others down to make themselves look better are cowards.

Paul Orberson himself said it best….”If you are full of bull, keep your mouth shut!”


Rodney Dangerfields September 23, 2010 at 5:14 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

FHTM does not do the same thing as Amazon and Travelocity. Those companies allow one to be an affiliate for FREE – get a free website to promote their services. FHTM, on the other hand charges others for what they get for FREE.

PS. They are NOT debt free like they claim. for all of the details


Dan Ashworth September 5, 2010 at 6:05 pm Thumb up 9 Thumb down 8

FHTM currently has in their policies that IR’s cannot received compensation unless the majority of the “customers” are outside of the home. I don’t know how this lawsuit stands a chance. FHTM has more than one former Attorney General on it’s legal staff and strives to be legal in every aspect. All major corporations have class action lawsuits against them. It doesn’t mean the law suits are won.


Jerica10 September 6, 2010 at 5:02 pm Thumb up 6 Thumb down 11

Nicely put, Dan!

I challenge you, Lou, to look up ANY company on the Better Business Bureau website of their respective States and not see complaints.

The old saying “It’s lonely at the top” is in order here, and still rings true today. When you are at the top of the game, there’s always going to be someone pointing up at you, and trying to knock you down.

Paul is a genuine, stand-up guy, who has done it bigger and better than anyone else, and he’s trying to help everyone else realize his level of success.

Shake the haters!


Dean September 4, 2010 at 9:38 am Thumb up 10 Thumb down 11

I am a current FHTM Rep and continue to be confused by how many people are against this company. I have been a Rep for just a few months and have made positive cash over my investment and am looking forward to continued growth. I DO go out and sell the products (My Website proves that) and several of them have a 25% Commission that I collect without ever having to touch anyone’s money or fill out an order. Previous to FHTM I have owned a Contract Sewing Company, A Coffee Roasting Business and am also an Art Dealer. ALL of these business required hard work with little or no return for a long time. Lost my tail in the sewing business, made a little in the Coffee Co. and continue to do ok in the Art…point is they are all a risk and much, much more so than a small investment in FHTM. I have no reservations about FHTM at all. What I keep seeing is that for some reason people think they are “owed” success for signing up. I would be very happy to discuss with any FHTM Rep how they might not be working their business to it’s fullest potential. Sell Products, Partner with others who sell products and best of all use your business to save yourself money. I buy my office supplies at half price over the national chain stores with free shipping and before someone tells me I can go other places to do that my comment is “I don’t need to” I already have it in my business.


louabbott September 4, 2010 at 12:45 pm Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2

Hello Dean – I sure don’t know how many people are “against” FHTM. While I am sure that there are some for various reasons, I certainly have nothing against them.

That said, there are serious legal issues that precipitated this and the other recent legal challenges. You, and all networkers, would be well advised to understand those issues instead of simply thinking that people are “against” the company.

It is not a time to have one’s head in the sand.


Jerica10 September 6, 2010 at 4:57 pm Thumb up 3 Thumb down 14


I do believe it it YOU who have their head in the sand.

The reason why these types of companies don’t work for some is that they are not willing to do the work.

Paul Orberson is just a guy who simply found a way for all of us to experience the American dream, and not have to work for Corporate Scum any longer.


Craig Mattice September 4, 2010 at 8:33 am Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1


You are always on the cutting edge of this information. Not only do you provide it in a timely and professional manner, you support your reporting with excerpts, links to other pertinent documents and sources, and make it very clear when expressing an editorial opinion. No fluff here.

As to the questions this class action suit brings to the public, the industry should be standing up and paying very close attention as to how this may directly affect their own organizations. I find it interesting you point to your own published work on the selection of a solid MLM/NWM’g company. These companies in the news never cease to fail at least one of the critical criteria listed in your book.

Should this play out legally the repercussions within the industry may be felt throughout and especially to these new pre-pre-launch comp plan based companies whose product appears to be a second thought. Which again brings us all right back to, “12 Critical Success Factors.” In this case not only is FHTM alleged to be a pyramid scheme by a class action not enough, but to also be tied to the RICO aspect causes additional concern.

Your subscription is well worth the return with timely and accurate industry information.


John Chatman September 4, 2010 at 3:23 am Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

Hey Lou,
Glad to see you are on top of this my man. FHTM is an interesting case since there is almost no other company without exception in today’s network marketing industry that has such a love/hate relationship surrounding it.

It seems like these guys are in a new lawsuit every 3 months or so but always manage to come out on the other side a little bit bruised but still growing.

I have some good friends that are good friends with the company founder Paul Orbeson and all they can do is speak about how much of a class act he is. These friends of mine are very well experienced networkers and businessman in their own right so I put a lot of stock in their word.

The bottom line is that I would like to see this issue handled once and for all so that either FHTM is forced to modify their business model or it has the opportunity to shut down all of the negativity surrounding it.

Either way I certainly wish the best to the field force who have been diligently working to build their own piece of the American Dream.

Keep rockin,


Ced Reynolds September 3, 2010 at 11:26 pm Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4

Thanks for the info Lou. I know you’re just passing on what you’ve come across. It’s a good thing companies like FHTM have attorneys who help them navigate the legal waters of the Network Marketing profession.

The following is a statement from FHTM:

Effective July 1, 2010: A Representative must sell products and services totaling 5 Customer Sales Points, with the majority of those points being sold to individuals outside of the Representative’s household, in order to trigger a Customer Sales Bonus payout to the sponsor.
In order to be eligible to receive a Customer Sales Bonus once it has been triggered, a sponsor must also have 5 active Customer Points on their account, the majority of which are outside of the sponsor’s household.

A Customer Sales Bonus (CSB) is generated when a personally sponsored Manager acquires (in good faith) at least five (5) personal, active, Customer Points within 60 days of his or her Manager date. At least three (3) of the five (5) Customer Points must be outside the household. The five (5) customers must purchase a CSB Point-generating product or service. To ensure that the pay is not charged back to a future check, the customer needs to remain active for at least 90 days.

On top of this, FHTM has instituted a monthly customer verification requirement. In order to be eligible for FHTM bonuses, Independent Representatives must confirm that the majority of products and services listed on their account are sales made outside the household.



Alan Eames September 3, 2010 at 10:53 pm Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

Hi Lou,

I too am amazed at how programs I look at that are “iffy” or just obviously suspect. Your 12 success factors make it so easy to evaluate. I’ve seen other programs with compensation plans very similar to this, What amazes me just as much is that when I tell someone that I think it’s not a good program and why, they go into defense mode and try to point out how wrong I am.

Keep up the great work, Lou!

All the best,



Kim Beckett September 3, 2010 at 2:12 pm Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

Hey Lou,
I don’t know how you always find out these things, but I am sure glad you are. It is hard to find out the real important things when everyone out there tells you what is in their best interest. Thanks again for giving me very useful infromation to navigate the Network marketing World. I am subscribed to your site so I won’t miss a thing.


Billybob Morton September 3, 2010 at 1:59 pm Thumb up 7 Thumb down 6

Awesome article. I am surprised it took this long to happen. They may not make it to their 10 year anniversary if the class action lawyers have their way here.


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